Dzongsar Khyentse’s London talk.

Dzongsar Khyentse’s Rigpa London talk has been posted on You Tube. It’s in two parts. They’re 4 hours in total.

You could listen on your phone with ear buds in while you clean the house, or weed the garden or drive to work! Or not.

Anyway, if you watch them,  let us know your thoughts, and if you don’t watch you could maybe tell us why. A good questin to ask is have these talks (this and the others in this tour) helped ensure that the abuse that occured in Rigpa will never happen again in any Tibetan Buddhist organisation?  That is what I’d like to see come out of all this.

 

 

 

Advertisements

107 thoughts on “Dzongsar Khyentse’s London talk.

  1. Abuse won’t stop until we ‘detox’ speaking out about problems & create an environment of open discussion and support. The flak/distrust and general negativity that I have experienced from flagging up problems with the NKT (and with Rigpa) indicate to me that we have a long way to go. It’s so often been ‘fellow Buddhists’ who have been unexpectedly unkind. A kind of Buddhist arrogance looking at people having joined & left the NKT as being rather stupid.

    If we have a climate that measures a teacher’s behaviour with ordinary moral criteria and allows frank and open discussion then we might get safer. The more corrupt teachers wouldn’t have so much space to move in.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Thanks, Carol.

      “Abuse won’t stop until we ‘detox’ speaking out about problems & create an environment of open discussion and support.”

      Yes and this requires we begin to focus on ourselves and our response-ability.

      ” It’s so often been ‘fellow Buddhists’ who have been unexpectedly unkind.”

      And the way we treat one another makes each of us vulnerable. The teachers are fulfilling their roles in a much stronger way than we are. Time for us to face one another, wholeheartedly.

      No teacher or authority is blocking this path, it is up to us.

      Like

      1. @Rick
        Do you mean that each of us has to think about how we would like to see this problem has to be solved? And which role each of us likes to play under the present conditions of Rigpa in relation to how decissions are made in Rigpa at present? With bearing in mind that it must be supportive for the Dharma even if it might be painful?

        Like

        1. @ Jan

          Hi Jan,

          “Do you mean that each of us has to think about how we would like to see this problem has to be solved? And which role each of us likes to play under the present conditions of Rigpa in relation to how decisions are made in Rigpa at present? With bearing in mind that it must be supportive for the Dharma even if it might be painful?”

          Thanks for your reply. Yes, it could be all those questions.

          I’m trying to say that the way we treat one another counts, and it counts a lot. If we are dismissive toward one another, discount other peoples experience because it doesn’t match ours, treat those closer to the teacher with more deference than those further away and if we don’t set up situations where listening occurs, then we are creating conditions where we each feel more vulnerable.

          We hold tremendous power and if we can come together, in difference, without cancelling each other out, there is a potential for tremendous power and coherence. We could accomplish a lot.

          But as long as we only focus on the teacher and don’t look to ourselves and make an effort to set up situations for communication, then it seems this cycle has a good chance of repeating. Deeply listening could easily be part of every retreat, in both formal and informal ways.

          Thanks,

          Rick

          “The collective dimension of the human being, where we have a considerable number of people, has a qualitatively new feature: it has great power – potentially, or even actually. And in dialogue we discuss how to bring that to some sort of coherence and order. The question is really: do you see the necessity of this process? That’s the key question. If you see that it is absolutely necessary, then you have to do something. The point is that love will go away if we can’t communicate and share meaning.”

          David Bohm

          Like

          1. Thanks Rick,
            Where do you start or with what and do you want to make it visible, I am referring to you Bohm quote now.

            Like

            1. @ Jan

              Thanks, Jan.

              Maybe connecting with those that feel dialogue is necessary? This could happen by email, fourm, phone, skype, hangouts, etc.

              “The question is really: do you see the necessity of this process? That’s the key question. If you see that it is absolutely necessary, then you have to do something.”

              If those people could come together, first to talk about that necessity and about dialogue, then talk about ways of setting up those situations, it could happen.

              For example (and getting ahead of the initial talk about dialogue) just a small group of people that did daily dialogue sessions during retreats, might produce change and would reduce a certain kind of reliance on the teacher without negating anything. At the very least, those in trouble or feeling vulnerable would always have a place to be heard and to listen to others.

              Or…?

              Thanks,

              Rick

              Like

              1. @Rick New @ Or..?
                Thanks Rick
                Here my answer.
                First I think we need a place where everyone can donate his wish how he/she would like to see the Rigpa problem to be solved.
                Second a place were every one can donate his or her practice for a good outcome of the Rigpa problem.
                Subsribtion of the donation with one of the following categories
                Donation as Rigpa member, Donation as ex Rigpa member, Donation as non/ never been in Rigpa.

                With the possibility of doing this anonymous.

                The place is. website were verybody can see each other wishes for solving the problem and how much practice has been done for this goal.

                Just to open up the sitiuation
                Think about it.
                Best wishes
                Jan

                Like

                1. @ Jan

                  Thanks, Jan. I think Olive Branch is already doing something similar to the first part of your suggestion. Have you tried to contact them?

                  If you are interested in looking further into dialogue, perhaps take a look at On Dialogue by David Bohm

                  Like

  2. “You should not be naive!” He said. Most of all these tibetan lamas are not holy beings.
    Abuse and everything else will never disappear as long as Samsara is perceived as the only reality.
    There are more profound dramas in the world than those discussed here. And all these dramas start from the moment you open your eyes to the world.
    Searching solutions for problems is of no help as long as the problem is not identified as being the very solution itself.

    Liked by 2 people

  3. Joanne in particular, yes DJKR spoke about harm.

    (first video Rigpa London)
    28:40 One of the main challenge is not having good teacher, not having enough teachers, someone who can teach, and even if we have a teacher, we know that there are many teachers, especially among the Tibetan, who are not really qualified, especially in the vajrayana. Not qualified vajrayana so called masters. There are so many tulkus, lamas, rinpoches, who indulges in so many bad behaviors and harm students, harm the Buddha Dharma, and burn the seed of inspiration from innocent people. This is a big problem there is none dispute with this. And I am not defending any of them, we should not.

    30:58 We have teachers but many teachers don’t event try to understand the society they are going to teach. A teacher is supposed to be like a doctor, the student like a patient, Dharma is supposed to be a medicine. If the teacher is not trying to understand the history of the student, and the sickness and all of that, then it’s definitely a problem.

    I listen to some other interesting parts, but still it is not my style, there are too many digressions. To conclude, I really wish that my neighbors Lerab Ling and Dharma friends all around the world will find the good answers, and take the right actions to fairly solve this difficult situation.

    Like

    1. Wow, he sits on a plain stage without Buddhas, fancy flowers and million dollar decorations! Is this just more PR imagery, designed to convince people what a humble, natural, unassuming teacher he is, lol? Ha! Not convinced!

      I didn’t watch the latest DKR videos yet, but if it’s true that he is truly criticizing teachers now, (suddenly, out of the blue), then I think he is a BIG hypocrite! He talks about abuse in the tulku system, (and he has criticized the tulku system in the past too, so he is saying nothing new, nor has he changed his tune), yet I don’t see him renouncing his own “tulku-ship,” or changing his own behavior! I suppose he thinks he is better than all of the other teachers he criticizes, and he is trying to set himself up as the new “moral” voice of Vajrayana and the new teacher that everyone can trust. (Barf!) All I see is someone desperately trying to do damage control and save Vajrayana’s image in the eyes of the public. It’s too little, too late, since he already let it go too long before making ANY comment against Sogyal’s abuse at all. In fact, he still does not mention Sogyal specifically. All he is saying is that there are teachers who are unqualified. So what? I see a lot of games here, but nothing sincere.

      Like

      1. Hi, Catlover. I couldn’t listen to all the talk in London, it’s tiring, confusing and useless (for me).
        From what I heard, DJKR just made general and vague statements.
        I picked up the statement above about harmful teachers, thinking for myself What now ? You answered.

        Like

  4. We were asked why we didn’t watch it. I heard from a reliable source that DJKR sleeps with his students ( hopefully he has stopped this now). After seeing his Facebook age with #Metoo and a woman in a bikini in the same picture, I decided my relationship with Tibetan Buddhism is over. How can objectification of women (even if he thought he was being provocative -he really doesn’t get it) and sleeping with students be Dharma? The Dharma is amazing and beautiful but the abuse of power by some teachers continues to exist, is kept secret and like many organisations currently dealing with it at the moment,needs to be faced and stopped. Not complicated Rigpa just get on with it.

    Like

    1. To Ex La la

      Yes it’s true, Dzongsar has had sex with his students. A good friend of mine from the UK used to have sex with him, and I’ve heard about others too.

      It’s worth mentioning that due to Dzongsar’s provocative online behaviour, and that he had initially dismissed Sogyal’s sex abuse victims, that friend of mine no longer sees Dzongsar as her teacher.

      Please do not let Dzongsar’s attitude towards women put you off Tibetan Buddhism, as there are many wonderful teachers from pure lineages out there, who offer the most profound practices with respectful and compassionate guidance.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Hi Marge,
        I understand if you feel it’s not your place to answer this but did your friend say whether her ‘relations’ with DKR were part of a teaching/spiritual growth process or whether they were just for more ordinary/normal pleasure reasons?
        Thanks

        Like

        1. To Rose

          It happened years ago, and it was nothing more than an ongoing sexual relationship between her and Dzongsar. No spiritual growth came out of it.

          She now believes that Dzongsar has gone off the rails, to the point that she now refers to him as a narcissist.

          Like

          1. @Marge,

            I personally find it distasteful for a teacher, who preaches control over desire, to be fooling around in a sexual manner with (adult) students, but there doesn’t seem to be a law against it. I think it’s important to remember that DKR is not a monk, so he is free to have sex with whomever. As for whether it’s a “spiritual” practice, I think that when teachers have sex with students, it’s usually just mundane sex and it has nothing to do with Tantra. I think real Tantric practice (of a sexual nature) is more rare, and what we mostly see with lamas and students is just regular sex, (dressed up as Tantra), for the sake of pleasure, etc. But lamas are human, and I don’t think that having sexual partners is necessarily a sign that a teacher is a horrible person. I think it is bad when the teacher uses deception or threats to con a student into bed. I also think sexual abuse is bad. But a sexual affair may be just an affair and it needn’t be abusive, or cause any trauma. It is a very complicated issue. I am not particularly bothered over the idea of DKR having normal sexual affairs, or even tantric relationships. What would bother me is whether he indulges in sex in a selfish way, and takes advantage of his position of power and influence as a way to get sexual satisfaction with students. Whether DKR does this or not, I can’t be certain, but the way he skirts around the issue of Sogyal makes me think that he has some serious issues around sex. So it’s not whether he has normal sexual relationships that bothers me, but his whole attitude about sexual abuse, and other related issues.

            Like

      2. Marge to Ex La la: “Please do not let Dzongsar’s attitude towards women put you off Tibetan Buddhism, as there are many wonderful teachers from pure lineages out there, who offer the most profound practices with respectful and compassionate guidance.”

        Well said. DKR does not own the rights to dharma for westerners, though perhaps he would like to think he does. Perhaps there is a contract for that too. You do not have to join an organization or follow a teacher who has a cult following. I still think it’s a strange phenomenon- these ‘organizations’ which in an of themselves are their own condensed clouds of samsara. There are many incredible teachers of dharma who teach any/all of the yanas. And the higher they are, the less they need to touch you! They should not. You have to seek them out. It is worth it.

        I too have heard over the years from reliable sources that DKR sleeps with his students and no one believes it is anything more than sex. Have a look at his students – do you see anyone on the bhumis? who exhibits any of the qualities? I think it is naive to think his sleeping with students is anything but satisfying uncontrolled libido.

        Like

        1. @concerned,

          “I think it is naive to think his sleeping with students is anything but satisfying uncontrolled libido.”

          I think ANY teacher sleeping with students is probably just uncontrolled libido, lol! I think if they would just admit that they have sexual desire, and that they just want relationships, like anyone else, I would feel more accepting. When it’s dressed up as Tantra, it comes across as just a lame excuse.

          Like

        2. As long its not abusive towards his changing partners, not abusive towards Dharma relationships (stduent-teacher), not making profit of his position as Dharmateacher, as long its consensual and both parts are considerated of, and as long its not discriminating women, as long its not pretended that ordinary sex is practising Dharma, as long its not claimed one have mastered one owns mind and has not, as long its not told to have sex with the teacher is extraordinary:

          I am fine more or less with it. Let people do whatever they want.

          Like

          1. In his book “The guru drinks bourbon”, DJKR presents the practice of “sex as an offering” to the guru. So how can he have sex with one of his student without this student thinking that he/she is practicing dharma?

            There are some limits not to cross. The guru using dharma for his personal interest is one of them. Especially when on the top, the dharma is misrepresented…

            Liked by 1 person

  5. Wow! The completely unadorned BLANK stage he is sitting on just SCREAMS, “We are trying to HARD to convince you what a modest bunch of teachers we really are!” Just another PR stunt, which is so obvious that it is completely UNconvincing!

    Like

    1. @Catlover Not so. The stage is bare because Siddhartha’s Intent students are broke & cannot afford to store fancy paraphernalia for his talks. We don’t have temples or brick and mortar centers. We meet in each other’s apartments.

      Liked by 1 person

    2. @deborahbouldin and Rose,

      Okay, maybe some of DKR’s students are broke, but he is wealthy and he has plenty of wealthy students and benefactors who support him. I am not naive enough to think the bare, minimalist look is anything other than just a PR move to make him look humble and simple. I am sure there would be people who would provide backdrop scenery if they really wanted to. It is much *too* bare to be natural, imo. Don’t get me wrong, I am certainly not against keeping things simple, but when I see over-the-top simplicity, without even a small Buddha statue on the shelf behind him, I can’t help but be cynical.

      Like

      1. It’s your choice to be cynical, Catlover. Rinpoche has always had a minimalist, elegant style that I and most of his followers share. I’ve always been turned off by the gaudiness of traditional Himalayan Buddhism and find Rinpoche’s approach refreshing. You don’t have to like it but encouraging others to see something nefarious in what is only personal preference seems counterproductive.Please enjoy your gaudiness and leave the rest of us alone.

        Like

        1. @deborahbouldin,

          I didn’t say I enjoyed the over-the-top “gaudiness” that most lamas use as a backdrop. I actually prefer simplicity, and I also find it refreshing when I see it, if I feel it is sincere and authentic. I simply don’t trust that anything about DKR is genuine, including his background scenery. He is a movie director and my impression is that everything he does is staged and planned with the intention of creating a certain kind of image for the audience. He does this very well, I might add. He uses the same talent that he uses as a director to stage everything he does related to his teaching tours. At least, that’s my impression, and you can agree or disagree. When it comes to DKR, I am very cynical, especially after his latest “performance” on stage for the sake of white-washing the abuses that go on, especially regarding Sogyal.

          Like

          1. What Are DKR his motivations to do a 12 hour tour for SL, and by what means can Rigpa/ Sl make him to this job? Is there pressure involved? You need to come with evidence formsaying it is white-washing.

            Like

            1. @Jan de Vries,

              Yes, there is a lot of pressure, not necessarily from any particular individual. There is bad publicity and loss of face for Tibetan Buddhism because of Sogyal and Rigpa, so DKR is out on the tour circuit to defend the image of TB, and more importantly, himself and his buddies (Sogyal, and others). That’s how I see it.

              Like

                1. @deborahbouldin,

                  Really? Sogyal isn’t his buddy? The why does DKR go out of his way to cover for him, and why does Rigpa pick him to be their new advisor? It looks like a pretty cozy connection between them to me!

                  Like

          2. This is SO refreshing to know there are people out there who can see through all the contrivances, that all people are not sheep running after these brats. It’s incredible how liberating this is- such a relief to know people have their heads on.

            @catlover. you used the word ‘talent’ ???

            DKR is pitching himself as some sort of savior of Vajrayana which makes me laugh. If someone handed me a free flight to a tropical place to hear him speak I would not go at this point.

            Like

            1. @concerned,

              You could take advantage of the free ticket to a tropical place, but skip hearing DKR talk! 😀

              Like

  6. I have to say that it’s really hard to concentrate on DKR’s video talks, but I have been trying to listen to them. During the most recent talks in London, I think he is trying to convince Westerners that he didn’t really say or mean some of the unpopular things he said before. Unfortunately, his explanations are falling flat and I am unconvinced. He is trying really hard, (too hard), to undo the damage he has already done. I am sure some people will fall for it, but (hopefully) other people may not be fooled. My own conclusion is that I feel people would be better off staying away from Rigpa, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Dzongsar, and find better teachers elsewhere. There are better places to get Dharma teachings, so it’s not like Rigpa is the only place where Dharma is available. (Send all of Dzongsar’s students to Mingyur Rinpoche, who at least seems to be more honest. I would still urge students to look at what he *does* as well as listen to what he says, and if his actions don’t match up to his words, then proceed with caution. I would offer that same advice when examining any lama. Do their words, (no matter how good they sound), match what they actually do?)

    What really stood out about DKR’s London talk was when someone actually read an excerpt from Mingyur Rinpoche’s statement and Dzongsar was blown away, (although I am not sure why), and he even asked to see it. He spent quite a while reading it very carefully. After reading it, he said that he was certain there must be some sort of “mistranslation” somewhere. He also claimed that he agreed with “most” of it, but he disagreed with the part about samaya. He basically said that if you have already taken initiation from a Vajrayana teacher, then you can’t speak out about abuse without breaking samaya. So, it’s very clear that he has not changed his tune one bit, and anything he says to the contrary is just PR maneuverings.

    Like

    1. So according to DKR there are some problems of “mistranslation” in the declarations of HHDL and Mingyur Rinpoche. Especially when the sources were in english and not in tibetan. Come on, this is supposed to be a conversation between adults! You can’t just escape facts with such a lame excuse.

      The fact that DKR has not read those declarations: this is what blows me away. He seems to be living in his own bubble and not connected at all…

      Liked by 1 person

      1. I agree, French Observer. I can’t believe his staff did not alert him to Mingyur Rinpoche’s & HHDL’s comments. I am deeply disappointed that DJKR refuses to condemn Sogyal’s physical & sexual abuse of women. Mingyur Rinpoche’s comments were timely, concise and spot on.

        Like

        1. DKR hadn’t even heard Minyur Rinpoche’s statement before his recent talk. When the guy read him an excerpt, he said “Wow!’ and then asked to see it. Then he spent a LONG time reading over it before he commented that he didn’t agree with the “samaya” part of it.

          Like

  7. I think I have a very good solution to the sex problem:
    When we agree that overlaying of sex among teacher and student is harmful to the teaching – even if undertaken conjointly.
    Then we need more female teacher / female accomplished lay practitioners with whom the male teachers can have sex with.

    But I think that is not the core problem. Abuse is wider than just sex. And not all sex needs be abuse. I think the Narcicisst Disorder hits the nail.

    Like

  8. If people don’t have time to sit through the many hours of DKR’s ramblings in his recent videos, you can skip to 1:32:02 of this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GC_VmA16-fs) where he reveals his true opinion very clearly. As I mentioned above, when someone asked him to answer whether or not he agrees with Mingyur Rinpoche’s statement, he reveals his true colors right here. If you watch no other part of his recent talk(s), this is the part worth seeing. His long, long silence after Mingyur’s statement was read, his slow deliberation as he was reading it, and most especially what he says about it afterwards says more about this man than anything else.

    Like

    1. DKR in the name of a principle, doesn’t seem to get the point of the necessity of protecting the victims and stopping the abuses.

      And what about his thought: “in the duality, you will always find some faults to someone”. Well, even in the non-dual space you don’t lose your wisdom. You can still discern when there are some abuses and victims. You don’t lose your capacities of discernment, the relative reality still appears. The victims feel the suffering and you feel it too…

      Liked by 1 person

    2. @catlover I replaid that part several times, because when he speaks about analysing for 12 years and then you have not enough time and you can still do the anaylis after initiation etc .
      I realy find it not logic and in itself very unclear.
      He has to formulate here his answer better, it is impossable to understand what he meant.

      What I don’t like as argument is that he talks about a misinterpretation or mistranslation.
      The way I red MR statement was, that he spoke or wrote it directy in English by himself without the help of a translator. Here DZK creates fog/noise in the discussion, I don’ t know if he did this intentional or not. It is not very helpful, when you want to be trusted, especially when you have made your sexcontract public. This sexcontract will follow him as a shade, wether he likes it or not.

      Like

        1. @Jan de Vries,

          I don’t think he will ever believe that HHDl or Mingyur Rinpoche would ever make a statement that contradicts what he believes. I wish someone would ask him to go into more detail about why he thinks Mingyur’s statements, or HHDL’s statements, are just a “mistranslation.” he needs to explain WHY he thinks this is so. I would be interested to hear what he says about that.

          Like

          1. @Catlover What did we learn from SR always check, when you believe/ thought you make already a mistake. This counts also for DKR.

            At the end of his talk he used clearly the word harm, harm has been done and it has to be addressed by Rigpa and by SR. His small teaching about the two truth was against the nihilistic view of rigpa and SR.

            If Rigpa will regain trust, they must stop going to court and not fight the french lawyer and make excuses.

            Like

            1. DKR keeps contradicting himself. One minute he says that samaya was broken, the next minute he says there was harm done, (although he isn’t specific about who did harm to who), then he calls non-tantric teachings “Cinderella” teachings that the Buddha didn’t really mean, then he says they are legit, and he is not putting them down. Yikes! I wish this man could make up his mind about what he truly believes, or rather, I wish he could tell the truth about what he truly believes!

              Like

              1. Perhaps he was hired to make noise and all his talks were only window dressing to pave the way for business as usual in Rigpa. We have to wait how things develop. But time is short and water rises.

                Like

  9. Norbu is a chatterbox, sorry to say so directly, a smart one. He would be a lawyer in US, talking confusion into the head of the “Jury” till they will follow his “advice”.

    He makes proof that any title from tibet might be good for something or not. Like trump is rich or not.

    I dont listen anymore to him, not takin him serious anymore. Use my time play with my grandchildren.

    Like

    1. Only the future can tell what was realy the case.

      He exposed himself, it must be like being in a high pressure cooker.
      If he honestly digest everything, well something good may come out of it, not in rigpa but elswhere.

      The real problem is that Sr and Rigpa remain silent. They are afraid of consequences and hope not to face consequences.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Recently some works of SR predecessor have been translated by Allan Wallace. Open mind view and meditaion in the lineage of Lerab Lingpa. There is a lot of advice in this book. I bought it out of curiosity, what has SR predecessor to say about our present issue.
        So see for yourself what might be in it for you, perhaps it is helpful

        Like

        1. To Jan de Vries

          I do not for one moment believe that Sogyal is Lerab Lingpa’s reincarnation. But Sogyal’s organisation, RIGPA, have spent many years marketing this fallacy, as so much of Sogyal’s fame depends upon it.

          I have heard numerous times that many in the Tibetan community, including reputable lamas, have said that Sogyal was not the reincarnation of Lerab Lingpa. I was told that even Dudjom Rinpoche, Chatral Rinpoche, and the Sixteenth Karmapa had said this too, and that the Sixteenth Karmapa had even predicted that Sogyal will one day bring harm to the spread of the Dharma.

          Khenpo Jigme Phuntsok, a teacher to His Holiness the Dalai Lama, was Lerab Lingpa’s unmistakable reincarnation – And this has never been refuted by anybody.

          Like

          1. We need the sources to be able to judge about this. reliable and clear.
            But why did HHDL consecrated Lerab Ling?
            If this is true we have to accept this. The idea makes me quiet.

            Like

            1. To Jan de Vries

              His Holiness the Dalai Lama had merely consecrated a Buddhist temple, like he has done elsewhere many times before. This absolutely does not imply that he believes that Sogyal is the reincarnation of Lerab Lingpa.

              His Holiness has always said that Khenpo Jigme Phuntsok is the reincarnation of Lerab Lingpa. Moreover, just how Lerab Lingpa was a teacher to the thirteenth Dalai Lama, Khenpo Jigme Phuntsok was a teacher to His Holiness.

              Sogyal has never even been spoken about.

              Like

                1. @Buddy
                  thanks this is a good source,, becaus if statement are made we need sources, not only just heard of etc.etc.

                  Like

                2. To Buddy and Jan de Vries

                  In 1993 Khenpo Jigme Phuntsok travelled the world visiting a number of Dharma centres, including Lerab Ling, where this this video was made. What he said here has already been discussed years ago.

                  Khenpo Jigme Phuntsok was merely following standard Tibetan etiquette of saying honorific things in front of students of another teacher. What he said was merely in passing after a Manjushri empowerment he had given to an audience of Rigpa members who had already been told by Rigpa that Sogyal is a reincarnation of Lerab Lingpa. He had to say something, but I would rather not call it a lie; instead I would call it Tibet’s honorific etiquette.

                  Some teachers, like Khenpo Jigme Phuntsok have no ego, and they have no interest in Dharma centre politics, and they will say honorific things in order to get the students to practice the Dharma – That is all they care about.

                  If you honestly believe that Khenpo Jigme Phuntosk is the same mindstream as Sogyal, somebody who committed heinous sex abuse, then Rigpa have succeeded in their political mission of misleading you.

                  Liked by 2 people

                  1. He is a Khampa lama who doesn’t mince his words or bow down to Tibetan etiquette. A lama like KJR would say nothing and distance himself if that was the way of thinking. But it wasn’t. KJR wanted SR to come to Tibet for years. Even Matteo Pistono can attest to this. Unfortunately that didn’t happen, but that was KJR’s wish.

                    I’ve seen other footage where KJR said SR is of the same mind-stream as him, that they are one and the same. I’ve seen it. Maybe I’ll be able to get my hands on it and upload it.

                    I know one of KJR’s students from Tibet and he said KJR spoke like this of SR often in front of crowds of thousands of people in Larung Gar.

                    I know it’s a hard pill to swallow for some, but vajra words are vajra words.

                    Like

                    1. “If you honestly believe that Khenpo Jigme Phuntosk is the same mindstream as Sogyal, somebody who committed heinous sex abuse, then Rigpa have succeeded in their political mission of misleading you”.

                      As stated above, I heard that from KJR, nothing to do with Rigpa.

                      Like

                    2. To Buddy

                      I’ve been around Tibetan Buddhism since the 1960’s, and I have lived in (exiled) Tibetan areas in the Indian subcontinent for twelve years, where I have met many people who have stated the same thing – Sogyal is not the reincarnation of Lerab Lingpa.

                      Buddy, it’s ridiculous that you are dismissing Tibet’s honorific etiquette, and even more ridiculous that you are making out that you know Khenpo Jigme Phuntsok.

                      His Holiness the Dalai Lama had the greatest respect for him, and saw him as a heart teacher, and still to this day His Holiness is in awe when he speaks of him.

                      Compare that to what his His Holiness said about Sogyal: “He is disgraced”.

                      Sorry Buddy, Sogyal is not the same mindstream as Jigme Phuntsok Rinpoche, and therefore he is not the reincarnation of Lerab Lingpa.

                      Like

                  2. Ha! Talked to many people! Yeah right. All I need to hear is one voice and that’s the vajra words of KJR up on that channel on youtube forever more!

                    Like

    1. To Lawrence

      This is the same video that Dzongsar has just posted on his Facebook page. It is clear that Dzongsar is still trying to mislead Sogyal’s students. He is still trying to get them to remain silent about Sogyal’s sex abuse.

      In this video His Holiness the Dalai Lama was asked for advice about what a student should do if they discover that their teacher uses their position of power to engage in sexual conduct with other students. His Holiness then gave his advice.

      HOWEVER, in this video His Holiness was NOT asked for advice about what a student should do if their teacher CONTINUOUSLY HARMS many people with SEX ABUSE (like Sogyal did). If His Holiness was asked this, he would have said the same thing that he has always stated: To publicly speak out against this teacher, and to warn others who could also be harmed.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Just because it is an extract of the conference. At other moments, His Holiness makes it very clear about the necessity to publicly speak out against this teacher, and to warn others who could also be harmed.

        Liked by 1 person

      2. @Marge

        All I want for you is to finish this continuous battle that’s inside you. You are too involved, to the point where it will be difficult to distinguish the reality from illusion. You probably want a confirmation from others that you are on the right track and your way of thinking is the right one. It does not matter how many will agree with you, in the end you are the only one who can be honest with yourself. And to be honest with yourself is to truly understand what’s going on with you and around you beyond the dramas or joys of this world.

        Like

        1. To Lawrence (sympathiser of Dzongsar and Sogyal)

          I and the majority of others on this blog, over the months, have taken Sogyal’s sex abuse very seriously. Rather than protecting sex abuse perpetrators and their allies, we would rather protect the innocent victims. It’s a shame that you disagree with us.

          Lawrence, looking back in previous threads, it is clear that you can not distinguish reality from delusion, and that you seem to be taken in by RIGPA’s and Dzongsar’s damage limitation exercise. You are clearly in the minority, Lawrence, and I hope that you will soon wake up.

          Like

          1. @Marge

            If you had read my posts carefully, you would have noticed very clearly what my opinion is about Sogyal. I did not know about Rigpa and this scandal until recently. I am not part of this phenomenon and I have no connection with Tibetan Buddhism in general.
            It’s hard to find a real guru on YouTube or the internet. However, because I had the chance to spend many years with a real Teacher, I can easily recognize that DJK is a man from whom, many people can learn. I do not have much to say. My intention is not to defend DJK, but just to keep others from judging him wrong, and thus missing a certain chance.

            Like

            1. To Lawrence

              You said, “I can easily recognize that DJK is a man from whom, many people can learn.”

              Let’s just agree to disagree with each other, Lawrence, because I can easily recognise a man from whom many people can be misled. It’s difficult to say which of Dzongsar’s actions has caused the biggest upset so far… his mockery of the #metoo movement, his vile sex contract, his allegiance to Sogyal, his dismissal of sex abuse victims, etc, etc, etc

              Like

        2. Hi Lawrence,
          wondering if you could recommend any books on Nagarjuna and his views that are relatively easy to read?
          Thankyou

          Like

          1. @Rose

            It’s not easy to read Nagarjuna. Over the years, even if you read the same book, you always have the impression that you are reading something else. It is closely related to the understanding that is gained through the Path.
            “It is not something that we can hope to understand in a single reading. It requires discipline, concentration, and repeated effort…”

            My way of studying the fundamental texts is the following:
            I’m reading a single sentence or a single phrase, then I contemplate. This way it takes a lot of time to finish a book, but this kind of books should not be just read, but rather contemplated. It must be meditated on the meaning of every sentence or every word. By acting with respect and devotion, the Right View is slowly revealed, the basis of all Buddhist practice.

            My teacher said:
            “If we are closer or farther than what we need to be, it depends only on our own effort. This Path is harsh and hard. However difficult, it is not impossible, and once it has been crossed already from others, it means that it is possible.”

            Like

            1. Yes, I understand – thankyou Lawrence. How wonderful you found your sublime teacher – outer and inner!
              Namaste

              Like

          2. The Dalai Lama teaches on Nagarjuna a lot, so if you want to understand it better, I would recommend listening to HHDL giving one of his many teachings on Nagarjuna. (I am sure you could find them archived on his website. he has many past videos there.) Then you could buy the text he was teaching on, and you would then have some background on the text before you read it.

            Like

  10. OK DKR made his point now.

    The next question is should one have a clear understanding of the mecanics/ theory of tantra before entering it, or is just a blind guess.
    At some point in history tantra appeared. Someone thought about it, discovered it is valuable tool or developed it as a tool.
    So had Naropa the theoretical knowlegde about tantra before he went to seek one tantraic master?
    And how does this tantric master knew he was a tantric master?

    Are yhe nature of mind teachings tantric teachings?

    Perhaps you know this Lawrence?

    Like

    1. @Jan de Vries,

      Nature of mind teachings are Tantric teachings, (if you mean pointing out instructions).

      This whole “check the teacher out” first advice is not an exact science. Ideally, one is supposed to spend 12 years checking the teacher before taking an empowerment, but generally people do not wait that long before entering into Tantra, and teachers seldom give extensive preparation to students before giving empowerments. Even the Dalai Lama gives initiations, (not just Kalachakra), without instructing students for twelve years. Most empoweremnts can be received on the basis of having taken Refuge, Bodhissattva vows, and Tantric vows. The latter two are generally given during the initiation itself, and sometimes even Refuge is included. So, pretty much anyone can receive a Tantric initiation with the intention of actually receiving it, but without having to examine a teacher for very long at all. Even if one examines a teacher, it would all depend on how close one actually is to the teacher. If you go to teachings for twelve years, you might not see much. If you’re alone with a teacher a lot, and you witness their day to day life, you might be able to really get to know them and see what they are truly like in private. I think you can really only know someone if you’re spending a lot of personal time with them. That’s why I think it is unrealistic to expect anyone to be properly “prepared” for Tantra.

      Also, if DKR is dishing out this advice, he should follow his own advise. How many times does he give empowerments to “unprepared” people? Does anyone have an answer to that question/ Does he follow his own advice?

      Like

      1. But the Tibetan book of living and dying decribes several introductions into the nature of mind.
        That may be imply that everybody who bought this book and red it has automatically a tantric relationship with SR without knowing it?

        Like

        1. @Jan de Vries,

          i think the introduction to the nature of mind teachings can only be received in person. I don’t think you can get them through a book. it has to be direct, (because it is a psychic transmission). A description in a book can’t replace brain waves.

          Like

          1. @Jan de Vries,

            It might also be possible to receive a transmission over the Internet, but it would have to be live. I don’t think you could get a transmission from a rebroadcast. Therefore, I don’t think a transmission from a book would be possible either because a book isn’t live.

            Like

          2. @Jan de Vries,

            Also, even if it is live, one would have to consciously receive the transmission and the transmission would have to have an effect on that person. You don’t really receive anything if your mind is dull, closed off, or not open to receiving, etc. That’s why they say if you’re in the room when there is an empoweremt, and you don’t know what’s going on, and you aren’t really consciously receiving it, then nothing happened.

            Like

            1. Thanks Catlover.
              But now Naropa.

              Why and with what reason would the dean of the Nalanda univerty go out to seek a tantric master?
              Did he miss somthing in his education, was he seeking direct experiences od wht he learned at the university of Nalada. It must have a meaning or contain some message this story.
              From the story of DKR you could say it is similar as the dean of oxford would go to the Hebrides, not for the wisky, but to find a fishermen and ask him to be his tantric master.
              Were tantric principles explained and teached at Nalanda only in theory and now he felt he neede to go for the real thing, encountering experiences?
              What do you think about that?

              Like

              1. To Jan de Vries

                In short, different teachers appeal to different students. This profound relationship is very personal and subjective. Even Shakyamuni Buddha and Guru Rinpoche didn’t appeal to everybody.

                Anyway, sometimes the student’s chosen teacher could well be close by waiting to be discovered, but sometimes their chosen teacher may live hundreds of miles away waiting to be discovered.

                Also sometimes the student and teacher relationship is based upon a connection from their past lives. For example, Lerab Lingpa was a teacher to the thirteenth Dalai Lama. And then Lerab Lingpa’s reincarnation, Khenpo Jigme Phuntsok, was a teacher to the present Dalai Lama.

                Nevertheless, all students, particularly westerners nowadays, should rigorously check-up on any teacher, as they could be charismatic charlatans who are using well known marketing tricks to attract new students.

                Like

              2. @Jan de Vries,

                In Tibet, often lamas or monks would seek out Tantra after some time studying the sutra in a monastery. It was not unusual at all.

                Like

                1. @catlover Nalanda was India, where tantra was developed.
                  I raised this question to get insight about the basics of tantra. In India it was more secret than in Tibet, still you can say it worked under both conditions. It seems therefore rely more on the factor the individual.
                  We are now in the situation that everthing is very open, google and you can find tantric pictures.
                  How can we practice tantra in the modern times, for that you need to know the basic essential and insight how the practice works.

                  I also raised this question in relation with/to the remark of DKR that he had learned a lot during his trip and that several topic were overlooked by the lama’s.
                  I don’t know want he meant by that, but my be he referred to modernise the practice.

                  Liked by 1 person

    2. But Jan, surely DKR “made his point” by selectively quoting the Dalai Lama, when we know the DL has been clearer about this issue in other talks? Personally i don’t find that the above extract brings much clarity, either way.

      Like

  11. Part of the problem with mass groups where students don’t have close access to the lama is the lack of careful guidance lama to student. Ideally the lama, if he really does try to get to know the history of the student as DKR mentioned is important (but does he himself really know his students?) and get to know the mind of the student, then that lama will carefully guide the student step by step and see when they are ready for vajrayana and what empowerment they need.
    With this careful guidance then the student has time to observe and check the lama and breakage of samaya is not an issue. But the student must check the background of the lama and practice with sincere effort.

    In Rigpa and other mass groups that is not happening. But then the main problem in Rigpa is Sogyal was not qualified, no proof of recognition ( I will never believe he is LL either), not checked, and not practiced to the point that he never did a retreat. A decadent parrot.

    HHDL is now saying to speak out publicly to raise awareness of abuse since these lamas only care about their face.
    So HHDL seems to be going with the times and adjusting to what is needed in these situations as lamas don’t have oversight. The students need to expose them. I find deep wisdom rather than rigidity by HHDL and impressed with his ability to modify on this point as well as the need to change the feudalistic model. Some things need to change with the times and critical situations.

    Like

    1. @RH Thanks, RH.

      I’ve really appreciated Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche’s efforts here. His explanations certainly have rounded out and expanded my outer understanding of Vajrayana.

      In addition, he’s encouraged us to communicate more. I hope we can communicate fully with one another and find the deep connections that inspired us to enter into the teachings in the first place.

      Like

      1. Dzongsar’s “efforts” were a part of RIGPA’s damage limitation exercise… that is spectacularly backfiring… But what do you expect when you cover-up or dismiss sex abuse.

        Like

    2. Understandable, from Rinpoche’s point of view. He’s spent.

      Like housework we’re just too weary or too busy to attend to – the elephant in the room will just have to bide its time. Seems this is the first time he’s faced resistance or challenges from people he can’t just ridicule as a legit response to their critiques or criticism.

      That’s the problem with being a superstar guru. One is surrounded with an army of yesmen who validate all your choices and utterances.

      HIs lashing out at ‘liberals’ and feminists sadly reflects his intention to reinforce the traditional status quo of an authoritarian patriarchy – and yet, his close students attend #metoo marches. Perhaps the Rigpa controversy will encourage them to challenge his more antiquated views?

      Like

    3. “As I am fundamentally just a mortal human being, I cannot make a judgment about another human being.”

      Oh my goodness. Rinpoche is the judgiest of the judgy! He had no problem trashing Hillary voters, liberals (ie most of his Western sangha), #metoo, women in general,”tulkus today”, Bhutanese life, and that’s just in the last year. Perhaps he meant “I cannot make a judgment about a specific lama” but he makes judgments about lamas, in general, all the time. I don’t think I could call bs in person; I would be making faces though.

      Oh, wait. I did call bs on his 10,000 word essay. DMed him. Don’t know if he read it. “I’ll see you in September but come on! Samaya is a word. Vajrayana is a word. Labels. Concepts. We still keep vows for all 3 yanas. The people he beat up & the women he raped are more important than ideas.”

      Like

      1. @deborahbouldin. Ditto to DKR being the judgiest of the judgy! Sweeping criticisms and generalizations and stereotyping. Aside from all the groups he trashes that you listed, don’t forget ‘readers of the NY times’. He trashes Tibetans constantly, Bhutanese, westerners, not many left. Yet odd that he won’t criticize a SL for the serious abuses he committed. He also takes jabs over the years at HHDL by criticizing his talks on ‘ethics’ and other issues. And lately said HHDL must have ‘misinformation’ or ‘mistranslation’ in HHDL’s response to SL.

        And DKR has the nerve to demand not to criticize.

        Liked by 1 person

        1. @concerned,

          Yes, DKR really is judgy! For him to say he “can’t judge” Sogyal is just a lame excuse not to say that Sogyal abused people. He sure makes Vajrayana look like the “Fearless” Path, LOL! (sarcastic)

          What he actually said about HHDL was that there must have been ‘misinformation’ or a ‘mistranslation’ of what HHDL actually said. He doesn’t believe that HHDL would have said that a Vajrayana student should ever criticize their Vajra guru.

          Like

          1. Yes well he seems to have judged the victims, by claiming their abuse wasn’t “correct”, as in the claims weren’t correct. Is that what he said? It was certainly odd.

            Like

            1. @matilda7,

              I am not always sure what DKR is saying, lol! I *think* that’s what he said, although if someone asked him, he would probably deny it and say that he actually said something else, (whatever you want it to be, lol)

              Like

  12. It looks like DKR has finally given up trying to “fix” it all, so he has decided to finally shut up before he puts is whole leg in his mouth instead of just his foot, lol! 😀 He realizes he has upset a lot of people, and he must feel really embarrassed now and he is losing face. I wonder if he will be able to resist remaining silent on the matter though. Somehow I have the feeling we will be hearing more from him at some point.

    Like

  13. Catlover, i do think it’s fair enough that DKR needs time for rest and reflection after his mammoth ‘teachathon’ (so tempted to refer to him as ‘norbu, the wonder boy’ – unfortunately it seems DKR really brings out my facetious side).

    Still waiting to hear how he can account for his ridiculing of #metoo, which, of course, ties right into Sogyal’s abusive treatment of women in his harem.

    In nearly all the other recent cases that have taken down powerful men across the globe, there’s been broad acknowledgement that such behaviour had been tolerated by women for far too long. Can’t see much of a specific mea culpa here.

    Like

    1. @matilda7,

      he needs some rest, alright, lol! 😀 I don’t really have much more to say about DKR right now. I have already stated what I think of him many times on this forum, and my opinion hasn’t changed. He has failed to convince me he is a big hero, riding in to save Rigpa, while riding a white horse…or elephant, lol!

      Like

  14. The difficulty here is that until individuals take responsibility for their own life experience, or at least their experience of their experience, little deep change is possible. The challenge, when you are dealing with larger-scale human systems, is that collectively people have to take some responsibility. I think it’s a perfect parallel to that therapeutic axiom that a person can see awful things that have happened to them in their life, but until they see their own part, they can never escape a victimology mindset, and a victim mind certainly cannot generate any real creative energies for change. De Maree used this term sociotherapy. From the standpoint of the purpose or intent or the theory of change, it is probably exactly right. It’s how we collectively learn to take responsibility for the conditions we have created

    Peter Senge

    Like

Comments are closed.